We’re back with another transformational episode featuring Jackie Stavros & Cheri Torres, co-authors of the groundbreaking book Conversations Worth Having.
Conversations are at the heart of everything we do. They are key to effective leadership, high performing teams, and strong relationships. We all know that they influence us, but we rarely stop to think about how much they affect our well-being and our ability to thrive.
In this episode you’ll learn about generative questions, appreciative inquiry (AI), and simple practices you can use to move stuck conversations forward.
Follow the conversation PMs are having about this and more at https://www.facebook.com/groups/pmxchange
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Transcript
Andrew:
Well, listen, I'm so excited to introduce these two. They wrote a book that I am a huge fan of called Conversations Worth Having. Multiple people on our team have purchased and read this book. Alexander, who's helping with all the Zoom controls today, I know is a big, big fan of this book. And we talk a lot about this when we talk about PM exchange and the way we do things differently through these events. So much of what we talk about is this is not just about information transfer. It's not just about bringing experts like Cheri and Jackie on to share information with you. It's more than that. What we believe is real transformation and momentum is created when we get into great conversations together. And so we're going to be doing that before the day is over, getting you into breakouts with each other to talk about how to turn the insights, lessons, everything you're going to learn today into real transformation. And so I've got to start with this Jackie and Cheri, why are we here? You wrote the book on this. Why are we here having a conversation about conversations?
Cheri Torres:
Thanks Andrew. So if you all think about your day and think about how much of your day is spent in conversation, including with yourself in your head, most people tell us it's around 98%, 99% of the time, and they're just talking away. And it's not just chatter and has no impact. That whole conversation, whether it's in your head or with other people, is influencing you moment by moment. It influences your wellbeing, it influences what's possible. It influences your relationships. And so the whole point of what we wrote was to allow all of us, anybody at all, to be able to intentionally turn those conversations into conversations worth having. So instead of being like the fish swimming around in the water and we walk around in our conversations, we want to make sure that those conversations bring wellbeing, bring success, and bring great relationships to our personal and our business outcomes and help us be more successful.
Andrew:
Jackie, I promise I won't call you Dr. Stavros again. Sounds like you want me to call you Jackie.
Jackie Stavros:
I usually just make my kids and my husbands call me Doctor.
Cheri Torres:
Your husbands?
Jackie Stavros:
Husband. I got one.
Andrew:
That's great. Jackie, anything to add to that of just what do you feel is most important? Why is this an important topic to you?
Jackie Stavros:
Well, as Cheri said conversations are the heart of how we interact. And a conversation can take a great day and make it horrible, or a conversation can take a really bad moment of your life and flip it into something extraordinary. So what you're thinking, what you're saying, and what you're doing with others really matters. And the science behind it is that it'll add 10 years or more onto your life expectancy.
Andrew:
Oh man, you got to say a little more about that. That's quite a stat right there.
Jackie Stavros:
So we talk about it in our book, but there's basically three sciences and the first one's called the new science and it's really not that new, but there's been a lot done by the HeartMath Institute in FRMIs and about how, if you're having the right conversation, it's a cocktail in your brain that all the good and happy hormones are going through your body. And so that's the new science and how important it is and that your oxygen is going to all the right parts of your body and your brain, and that you're not going into where... If you think about this is when you're in a great conversation, you're operating from the front of your brain. So, see my thumbs are up. And when you're having a bad conversation, look at where my thumbs are. From the back of your brain, that protect mode is down.
The second science is called positive imagery, positive action. It's done with athletes, it's done in the health sciences that the more positive the image, more positive the words, the more long lasting the action. And then the third thing is the positive psychology area that Cheri had talked about. It's about the positive emotions, the relationships, the meaning in your life, the achievement in your life. There's just all around good health to yourself and to those that you're engaging with.
Andrew:
I love what you said there, and I bet a lot of people can just relate to what it feels like to be in a positive great conversation. They get into that flow state where they can lose track of time, the way it just feels to be in a great conversation. And I think everyone also can relate to conversations where we're operating from the back of the brain like you talked about where, man, things seem tense, there's friction, there's resistances.
Jackie Stavros:
You feel it.
Andrew:
And you feel it, like in your whole body you can feel it, right? So that's totally true.
Cheri Torres:
And it's all biochemical, and under our control. We can change it.
Andrew:
Well, we're going to talk some more here and then we're going to get everyone's dopamine and oxytocin firing and all those neurochemicals you're talking about, get them into a great conversation to discuss this amongst themselves. So here's my next question for you Jackie and Cheri. It's what have you two noticed as people who have studied this? It's your work of... What do you notice about the best conversations and what it takes to create them?
Jackie Stavros:
What I notice about the best conversations is you can... Even on Zoom today, you can feel people leaning in, they're productive, they're meaningful, they're solution focus, creativity inflows, even in some of the worst situations.
Cheri Torres:
I think also what you notice is there's a sense of connecting to the people in the conversation. The focus is much more on we and less about me. And there's this, depending upon what questions are being asked, you either begin to expand your awareness about the other or about yourself, the visible, the invisible becomes visible, and you can create shared understanding. The other thing is suddenly there are more possibilities. Your whole field, the vision expands, and the possibilities for action or what you might do or what you might say also expands and grows instead of shrinking into, "Here's what I have to do."
Andrew:
That's really great about what you notice about what it's like to be in a great conversation and noticing with what that goal state is. Yeah, I guess my question is what have you noticed about what it takes to create them? What do people bring to these conversations? What do they do in advance? What do they do in the middle to create that kind of feeling, to create that kind of experience for themselves and others?
Cheri Torres:
So one of the first things that we recommend is to pause and tune in so that you can be deliberate with your conversation, asking yourself, "Where am I?" Sometimes you tune in and you're like, "I'm ready to go. And I'm connected to the person." And you're already in that flow state. And other times when you tune in and you pause, you recognize, "I am below the line here. I am feeling defensive. I'm at the back of my brain." And then we recommend you breathe, take a deep breath. Just taking a deep breath changes your neurochemistry. And then get curious. What's going on for me? What's the outcome I want here? And then following that, what we've noticed and what we write about in the book is that two very simple practices will always generate a conversation worth having any time, anywhere, and in any situation. And those two practices are asking generative questions and creating a positive frame, talking about what you want instead of what you don't want, and getting curious and asking questions that help change the way people think and create images of what you want.
Andrew:
Man, that might sound so simple on its face to so many people. And yet I think about how many times I've gotten into conversations and how powerful it would be to have a sticky note or something nearby of just that, hey, pause, breathe, get curious. Tune in, really tap into some self-awareness, get present. And getting curious kind of leads to those two things you were talking about. Curiosity leads to questions, and we're going to talk about what really makes a great question because not all questions are equal, or not all questions will generate the same kind of results or experience in a conversation. And so excited to talk more about that and the positive frame that you were just referencing. So kind of bringing those two things together, there's this term in the book that people would read. They would see AI, they'd see these two letters. And I think most people on this call when they see AI, they're thinking artificial intelligence is what comes to mind.
But there's something back from the 1980s and it stands for something different. I know it means something different to the two of you. So Jackie could you? I've kind of built this up now. Why don't you take it away from here and talk about what AI means to you.
Jackie Stavros:
Yes. No matter who we're typically talking to, if we ask them what does AI mean, I would say 99% of the time they will type in artificial intelligence. And Cheri and I, back in the mid-nineties, learned about appreciative inquiry. And appreciative inquiry just started out as a way to ask questions that are valuing the person, you, and valuing the situation. That's appreciation. And inquiry is the way we ask questions. They're not yes or no questions. Andrew mentioned curiosity, but appreciative inquiry questions are very open questions. And if I want to deepen understanding, it's, "So tell me more." And if somebody is telling you everything they don't want, it's being able to say, "Tell me what you would like to happen." And my favorite generative question, AI question, we call it our AI, is, "Tell me what your wishes are. If I gave you three wishes, what would you like to see to happen?" So it's about sometimes discovering the best of what was, is, or is possible.
Andrew:
Cheri, I'm going to give you something to add to that and then I've got a comment on something that Jackie mentioned as well.
Cheri Torres:
Oh, just... I thought you were going to ask a question.
Andrew:
Oh, anything about AI.
Cheri Torres:
No, I think Jackie did a great job on that. It originally started as an organizational development practice, but more and more people were asking, "How do you do this in everyday life?" because it has such a positive impact at the whole system level. And it really boils down to these two simple practices, which as you noted are simple, but they're not easy,
Andrew:
You mentioned, "Hey, the best of what was, the best of what is, the best of what could be. An example of a question that was, "Hey, if you had three wishes or if you could wave a magic wand, what would the future look like?" And that's really looking to the future. What's the image of the future that we might be able to share together or work on together that represents the best of what could be? There's other questions of, we really started with this, like, "Hey, what have you noticed about the best conversations?" And that's maybe potentially looking back. If we asked people in this audience, "Hey, think about the best conversations you've been in, and what did you notice really came alive in those conversations? What did you bring to those conversations? When have you been at your best in a conversation?" And then the present one, sometimes we struggle with, but that's really talking about strengths, like strengths in the present, your greatest strengths today and how you can leverage those in conversations.
And we could plug something in different than the word conversations, but use that same kind of framework to ask great, positive, and generative questions that spark conversations everyone can participate in and feel really great in, but that can also be really productive, so thank you for sharing that. That's really great.
Cheri Torres:
Can I add just one thing to that? Sometimes people equate AI with being positive and just focusing on the best, and it's really important to recognize that it's about focusing on what will add value or is of value. And sometimes it is of value to point out a problem, but it's never a value to spin cycle around the problem. It's kind of how do we move from, "Oh, good point, we need to do something about that." "Oh, how are we going to do something about that from an appreciative inquiry perspective?"
Jackie Stavros:
And just adding on is when you have that, you ask yourself, AI, we talk about the whole system. Do we have all the right people in the room in the conversation? Who's going to be involved in this solution? Who's the solution going to be delivered to? So do we have all the right people engaged in the conversation?
Andrew:
I bet people in this call can relate to a time where there was a conversation that happened and they weren't there.
Cheri Torres:
And it impacted their lives.
Andrew:
They found out later. It would've been nice to be included in that, or vice versa. As many of the people on this call sharing Jackie, they're leaders in their organization, they're business owners, and sometimes you can have a conversation with something, it's happening organically and you start to realize after the fact, "Oh, so and so from leasing wasn't on that call." Or, "So and so from maintenance missed that conversation and didn't have a chance to contribute to that conversation." And there's catch up work to do there. That's a good point.
Jackie Stavros:
Remember the Girl Scouts said this, "Don't do anything about me without me." That's why I heard it once.
Andrew:
I like that. I like that. So hey, let's get into... I think people get it here at this point. You guys have put some good context and background here. We want to move to the part here where we talk about the really practical tactical stuff. Let's talk about some examples and really getting to the ground level of using this and what it looks like when you bring this kind of concept to life, this kind of practice to life. And so I'd love for you guys to set up first, what is the flip, the positive flip? What is the positive opposite, are the words that have stuck with me forever since I first read them and heard them. So could you guys set that up and then we'll walk through some examples with folks here on the call.
Cheri Torres:
So the idea is to take the problem, name it. And we've had people say to us, if their whole team has been through this training, they can be in a conversation that's just starting to like, "Oh." And they just pause and name it. Name what the problem is, and then everybody kind of goes, "Oh yeah." And then the positive opposite is just simply the positive opposite. So if the problem is we're making decisions without the whole team, the positive opposite would be we're making decisions with the whole team. So that's a simple flip. And then we encourage you to broaden the frame, so it's not just the positive opposite, but if the positive opposite were true, what would the outcome be? What's the actual desired results, or the impact you're trying to have with this conversation? Who are all the people involved, and what's a conversation all of them would want to be involved in? So should we give an example?
Andrew:
Yes. And just before we do, I want to share something really quick. And here's what I'll do. I'm going to pause-
Cheri Torres:
Stop sharing?
Andrew:
... The name... I wrote it down though. Name it, flip it, frame it. And we can pull it back up by the way, if that's helpful as we're talking through the examples. But I want share something really quick over here as a drawing. And this is something that I think is really important. And so if we look at the problem is here, or if we look at what's broken, what needs to be fixed, a lot of times what happens is when people look at things through the problem definition and don't make that flip first, a lot of times where they end up, is here. And so let me think of an example of this. I think one of the best examples I ever heard was British Airways. Yeah, you guys probably... I'm probably remembering stories from your book, that's probably what I'm remembering. British Airways had a problem of baggage not arriving on time. Baggage was not arriving on time. And many of the people here, remember when our ancestors traveled, and we went through airports? We're starting to get back to that again.
But the problem was baggage arriving on time. And you could imagine this just on the KPI sheets of United Airlines and Southwest and et cetera, and people talking were just measuring what percentage of bags are arriving on time. But British Airways did something different. They asked a new question that led them to a different result. And what they said was, "What's the most excellent, amazing arrival experience that we could create?" And yes, getting baggage there on time is a part of that, but there's also much more that can happen that creates someone's arrival experience. And so if we just think about excellence and what we want most in that greatest picture of the future that we can share together, a lot of times when we're solving problems, we're just taking it back to neutral, where it's not causing pain, and the pain is solved for, as opposed to saying, "How do we create excellence?" And that creates a whole different kind of income. It's a whole different kind of conversation. So-
Cheri Torres:
Yeah, it does.
Andrew:
... That just sparked that for me when you guys were talking about that.
Cheri Torres:
Yeah, and the question that actually they asked at that point when they said, "Okay, we want baggage recovery." The person working with them said, "Is that all you want?" And they were like, "Oh, what?" And so it really got them to think bigger, which popped them up to exceptional arrival experience. It's a great example.
Jackie Stavros:
And it's a classic example because when 911 happened, British Airways was one of the few airlines that didn't shut down and they really soared on their experience and everything that they could do. So they've been using appreciative inquiry, I want to say for over about 20 years now. That's a classic example.
Andrew:
And it's so funny you mentioned earlier how 99% of people, they think artificial intelligence. But what they don't realize is there's companies like British Airways, there's companies, I think of Dee Hock from Visa, I think of all kinds of companies that... Facebook has been using appreciative inquiry and a number of the UN, the Cleveland Clinic is where this got started, right? And so there's so many amazing and famous brands and companies across all kinds of industries that are using this as a methodology to build their companies and get the best thinking and best conversations out of their people that take their companies to exciting destinations together. So here's what I want to do next. We promised examples, so let's do get to the examples, all right? So we're going to name it, flip it, and frame it, and walk through a couple examples. So we have a couple prepared, but here's what we want to do. This is a benefit of being a live audience, all right?
If as we're going through this, you can think of a scenario, we may save a third one or later in the Q&A we can get it addressed. So if you think of a situation or what have you that you'd like to see a positive flip, let's get to the positive opposite with, feel free to put it in the chat, feel free to put it in the chat. But here's the ones we're going to start with, all right? So Jackie and Cheri, let's say I'm a professional property manager, and I'm sure the people on this call will tell you this never happens. But let's say I've got a micromanaging property owner, all right? Somebody who's quote on quote hired me as the professional, and yet insists on inserting themselves into every decision on a day-to-day basis and really, really, really being close to these kind of day-to-day decisions. And man, it's frustrating because it's a lot of time, it's a lot of communication, and it's difficult to deal with. So how would you approach a scenario like that using this framework that you've shared?
Jackie Stavros:
You're saying that I manage the property and the owner is the micromanager?
Andrew:
That's right.
Jackie Stavros:
That's the problem?
Andrew:
That's the problem.
Jackie Stavros:
So the flip is the property owner does not micromanage me. And as Cheri said, you want to keep moving that what do we really want to happen if the property owner is not micromanaging me, is that we have a really great relationship here and we have a shared understanding of what my responsibilities are and what I'm accountable for, and having a conversation as the owner, what you can trust and believe. And that's where we begin to move the conversation. And sometimes you have a conversation with yourself before approaching, you're assuming this micromanager there, and how are you going to make sure you are above the line in your conversation. Remember the pause, breathing, get curious, so that you don't put your property owner into a very defensive... Remember back here? A defensive position or close-mindedness at them. Cheri, what else would you...
Cheri Torres:
I would say that that's also where generative questions come into play because as the way you just described that Andrew, there's probably a good deal of frustration that's being built up. And so in terms of emotions, we're back here, which is what we call below the line. And so Jackie's suggestion to tune in first, kind of that pause, breathe, and get curious. What is it that I really want, which is some of where your frame might come from. And Jackie created a frame that was something like, I didn't capture all of the words, but we have a partnership based on trust and shared desired outcomes. And so if you go into the conversation with your property owner with that frame in mind, and you're now above the line because you're like, "Oh yes, that is what I want. How can we create that together?"
It's probably what the property owner wants as well. And so questions like, "When have you really trusted me and it's turned out really well?" Now you're getting the best of the past. Or asking a question of, "What does trust look like to you, and how can we build that so you can get more time and not feel like you have to be worrying about the property? Because after all, that's what you're paying me for." So those generative questions actually help the property manager see what they're doing, not in a way that criticizes them, but in a way that gets them to begin to change their thinking around the need to micromanage.
Andrew:
It's so big because I feel like so many times the way this conversation goes is we get into this emotional state of, man, this is frustrating, it's frustrating for everybody. That's how everyone's feeling. And if we're focusing on the frustration, and that's where we're fixated, right? It's like we keep assigning deeper meaning to the problem and aren't able to get into this constructive conversation about what we want to happen and where we want to go, what the relation relationship looks like, what this interaction can sound like and feel like. And talking about that as something you can work on together in collaboration with the person that you're talking to, it just changes everything when it's approached from that kind of frame. And here's what I think is so important about what you said earlier. It's like, hey, it's not always positive, meaning many times the situations are objectively difficult.
It's about what's the constructive and generative conversation that can take place in this situation so that we're getting into collaboration and working on something together, right? That's the feel. That's really great. Let me ask this because I think... Before we move to another example, for the micromanaging owner, I've heard, I can't remember... Again, I'm probably just saying things from your book I imagine, but I just imagine, hey, there's the content of what's going on in the moment, but when you say, hey, I want to pause and I want to breathe and really say, what do I really want here? And it's not just, I don't want you to bother me about this specific maintenance invoice being approved. That's not what you really want. What you really want is what you put in the chat here and said earlier, which is a relationship built on trust, right?
You want a relationship where they've hired you to be the professional, they've empowered you to make these decisions, and they can see with confidence that you're making good decisions on their behalf. They feel confident. And so I'm just thinking about getting into a real life conversation like this in a way of starting it might be something like, "Hey Cheri, it sounds like understanding the maintenance process we use here and how we approve invoices is really important to you." Starting there from a place of empathy to get that yes and working from that. And hey, you can have that conversation first and work through it, but something somebody taught me, again, it's probably you, was, hey, I want to have that conversation about this specific maintenance invoice. And, I want to have a conversation about these kind of interactions that we have and how we communicate about these kind of things. I want to talk about our relationship. And I want to talk about something critically important, way more important than any invoice, which is trust in our relationship.
And bringing their attention to that allows like, hey, what kind of relationship did you imagine when you hired us? What did you really want to have happen and what did you want to see happen? What'd you want it to feel like? What'd you want to experience? And making sure that lines up with the way your business is built, because they're also maybe may be different types of customers. One who says, "I really want an extremely high level of support where I'm being educated the whole way through, where basically I'm learning how to become a property manager." Is that what you want? And did we find our right fit client if that's the case, versus, "Hey, I was really looking for mailbox money. I'm looking for someone I can just trust and empower to do all this stuff and there's as little communication as possible." And there might be just a conversation that needs to happen or there might be just a misalignment of goals. And then you've got to decide, do I want to serve both types of customers or potentially do something different?
Cheri Torres:
I can imagine them might also be a property owner who has been managing their own property, and now they've hired somebody to do it and they don't know how to back off and let go.
Andrew:
I see nodding heads in the gallery Cheri, I think you're speaking to some people's reality right now. So this is...
Cheri Torres:
That can be an upfront conversation.
Andrew:
This is really great. Let's do another example. And again, if anybody in the crowd has an example, feel free to put a situation and we can practice doing a positive flip on it. Here's the next one we've got. I wrote down, "Unrealistic maintenance expectations from the resident." And I'm just going to exaggerate this one for dramatic effect, all right? And when I say I'm going to exaggerate it, there's going to be somebody on this call saying, "Andrew, no, that's not even exaggerated enough. You won't believe what we deal with." But I'll just do an exaggerated dramatic example. So let's say I'm a resident and my HVAC is not blowing cold air in the middle of Asheville, North Carolina, July summer. And I'm upset, it's a bad situation. And I call, and I'm getting ahold of somebody eventually, relatively quickly, and it turns out the whole unit needs to be replaced.
That's the situation. And then I'm expecting that to be done within six hours. A whole unit replacement within six hours because that's it, versus the real scenario of it's going to take time to get that in, get people out. And by the way, it's the middle of summer, so everyone else is having HVAC issues, so it's hard to get people there quickly and everything else. So that's the situation and my expectation of when this maintenance issue is handled is not going to be met, the timeline is not going to be met in my mind. If that's a situation, how would you think about it and work through that kind of conversation?
Cheri Torres:
If you think about the frame first, the positive opposite is that the customer, I mean the tenant understands, they recognize the situation and they're going to find a way to keep cool for the six days or however long it's going to take before we can get a unit in. If you know this tenant and you're like, "That is not going to happen." The first conversation you want to have, again, is with yourself. As you try to think through what's the outcome I'm looking for, just do that, pause, breathe, and get curious. How would I feel? And then immediately going, "Oh, I have felt this before." And as Claire said, it's Friday at five o'clock. That has been my experience. We have property, we are property owners and rented out. And being able to get into a place of empathy like, "Boy, it is really hot, and I understand, and this has happened to me before."
And so what could be a win-win for going in to talk with the tenant, and what is possible from my point of view as the property manager? What can I do? What can't I do? And if you've got in your contract, you've got 30 days to fix maintenance issues, you have 30 days to fix maintenance issues and that's the bottom line. But going in with a sense of empathy and understanding, and perhaps the frame you come up with is the tenant understands that from a contractual point of view, we're doing the best that we can, and we have 30 days and we're getting somebody in there as fast as we can, and that we're thinking together about what the tenant might do in the meantime. And so you might go in then to talk with the tenant in a way that you're coming from a place of calm because you know what you're willing to do and what you're not willing to do.
And there's the line drawn about we're not arguing about anything that's in the contract. Instead, how can I think with you or offer some suggestions. "When this happened to me two summers ago, my wife and I decided we were going to go check into a hotel and have a two day spontaneous holiday." Or, "I've got some extra fans in my garage and I'm happy to bring them by for you." How do we help think of, "Do you have family in the area?" It's be a partner to them without having to compromise or get into an argument over what you're not willing to do and what they shouldn't have an expectation about.
Andrew:
That's really great. Jackie, I'm going to leave it open in case there's something you want to add there.
Jackie Stavros:
No, I think I like what Cheri said, and it's the conversation is what can we do until we get that air conditioning fixed? And that's what we want to move the direction, not what I can't do, but what is possible.
Andrew:
So great. Reframing those expectations, a lot of times I think property managers feel like I'm in the expectations business. I'm in the expectations compared to experience business, and that's where a lot of their conversations really take place. So, love that. Great example. Let's do one more, and again, if anyone has anything they want to put in the chat, cool. If not, we've got some Q&A time for later. Love that Claire Schwartz, don't over promise. Here's what I'm thinking. For some folks on the team, or sorry, for some folks on the audience, they've got people on their team that they're relying upon to do their job, to do it well, to do it on time and in a timely manner, which man, that really gets to what we were just talking about, the importance of doing things in a timely manner to exceed expectations. I'll just take kind of a universal scenario that people of all business types probably encounter. And that's, I got an employee who regularly shows up late and maybe this was... It's a pattern, it's not one time they showed up late.
It's a regular pattern of showing up late. And we probably saw this again in ancient times when we were all working in an office together in a very visible way. On Zoom, if someone's 40 seconds late, it feels like an eternity. That we might not have noticed in person. But regardless of whether it's happening digitally or in person, let's just say it's a problem and it's bothering you and it feels like it's affecting the business, and their ability to deliver great work. And so it's got your attention. How might you approach that kind of conversation? Again, one more example of working through this, not with a resident or owner, but even somebody within your team.
Jackie Stavros:
I just was reading Dana's question, which I want to come back to, and laughing. But yeah, I find people are sometimes more late to meetings on Zoom than when they were in the office walking down a hall. So when I think about the person that's late, the positive opposite doesn't take much to flip it. Your colleague is on time or the person is on time. Keep going. The real frame is imagine if we're showing up on time that we have a real high performing in sync team, and that's what we really want to be talking about so that... It's like the British Airways example that you showed. I could have a conversation about showing up on time to that one person, or I can have a conversation about what makes a great team and we come up with our principles of what makes a great team, and I'm sure being prepared and showing up on time will be one of those principles, but then there's many other principles that we all become in sync with.
And that's where we study, is what's a high performing team like, and how are we going to create it and hold each other accountable to be a high performing team?
Andrew:
That's really great. So maybe not even coming so directly at it of, "Let's talk about showing up on time." But it's really about what are we all trying to accomplish here that we feel is important? We've got that shared purpose and understanding of what we're trying to achieve together here. And, it's a question of how can we be our best as a team? What does it look like to be at our best as a team? And understood within that is going to be, being on time, being prepared, being professional. And that's a way of actually starting that conversation. And it's so easy to see how that's so constructive, and that may include things beyond just showing up on time that has that person suddenly more engaged and more motivated at work, and that it's starting to have a positive impact in other ways and other interactions that they're having. It's easy to see how it could lead to that. Cheri, anything you would add to this example?
Cheri Torres:
Sometimes you also find yourself... Imagine you come up with all of those and being on time is there, and this person agrees with that, and then they continue to be late. So you may find yourself needing to have a one-on-one conversation with that person. We talk about giving generative feedback. And what makes feedback generative is instead of focusing on the past and criticizing what's happened in the past, to actually first get yourself, again, it's always how can I be deliberate and where am I in the conversation? Focus on feedback as a way of learning and growing. So you might even ask yourself a question, "How might I grow by finding out what's going on for my colleague? Maybe there's a lack of awareness, maybe there's something I just don't know. And so what might I learn in this conversation, and how can I share what happens for me and what's happening for the team when this person is always late? And are there ways that we can support that person being on time, or rescheduling in ways that make it easy for the person to be on time?"
But it's again, sometimes it's important to have that one-on-one feedback, and you don't want to avoid it. You want to name what the problem or the issue is, but then talk about it in a way that allows everybody to grow and move forward towards what you want.
Andrew:
I'm going to share a boneheaded mistake that I made in a previous company years ago that I feel like just resonates with what I'm taking away from what you just shared Cheri. Just an example of where I failed as a leader and what I've learned from it, which is I've had this exact scenario happen where there was somebody continually showing up late. And I remember addressing it. I was at least smart enough to pull them aside one-on-one, so at least I didn't embarrass myself in front of everybody, and it was just them. But the reason I embarrassed myself was I didn't totally lose my cool, but I came in a little stern and I just said, "I got to come clean. It's really bothering me that you continually show up late. It's really bothering me that you continually show up late and I just really need you to be on time."
That's where it started. And she just broke down into tears. She broke down into tears. And she said she had two kids that were at different schools and she's just like, "I have to drop them off here and here. Single mom working this, this, that." And I had no idea. I knew she had kids, but I didn't think of the scenario and what was going on in her life that was causing that. She just said, "I should have talked about it, I should have brought it up, and this, this, that. But I was just doing my best to show up on time." And it made me realize that actually what we needed to do was give some grace there or move the time of the meeting. There might be a different solution, right? And you can't do that unless you do what you've taught us to do here today, which is to pause, breathe, and then get curious and understand what's going on and what we really want to have happen and then work with them constructively to make it happen.
So eventually we got there towards a good solution, but man, I felt like... You can imagine how I felt in a moment like that, calling them out and that's what was going on in their life. And so man, just a great reminder to start with that empathy and curiosity of a place to understand. And I think sometimes leaders struggle with this, and in this industry we struggle with it, Cheri and Jackie. A question I get all the time talking to property managers about this kind of concept is, "Okay, but if I show a lot of empathy, is it possibly giving ground or giving an excuse for behavior that isn't acceptable?" And there can be a dynamic that's kind of especially pointed in property management of, we've got lease agreements to uphold, there's legal agreements and legal risks when things don't happen the way that they should.
And so I think this is really important to talk about, of empathy not being the same as agreeing, but it's about seeking understanding. You don't have to agree to understand what's going on. You don't have to agree and excuse what's going on in order to be curious and show and make that emotional connection where they say, "Man, Cheri gets me. Jackie gets me, and what's going on?" Can you guys talk a little bit about that and what you think is important to getting that place? Is it okay to start conversations that way even when there's risk and consequences? How do you navigate that?
Cheri Torres:
Yeah. Again, having been a landlord and made some very expensive mistakes in being compassionate, and they end up not being compassionate in the long run because eventually you end up having to evict somebody anyway, and so there's a lot more damage. So just learning to hold the line with, this is a contract, it's an agreement. And you can understand completely and have empathy for the person, and instead of moving the line around the agreement and the contract, have your empathy move towards, "How might I be able to support you in either moving out, finding another place, connecting you up with somebody that can support the needs you have right now." So your empathy can actually be building a relationship without ever compromising the business arrangement.
And that can go a long way for a tenant to feel like, "You really are on my side, and I need to do the right thing here too." Yes, Hannah says boundaries, and that's exactly what it is. And I think if you do that, pause, breathe, get curious, you tune in, you start that conversation, you're coming from a place of I know what I can do, I know what I'm willing to do, I know what I'm not willing to do, and this is not about any of that. Then you can start from a place where it's easy to stand on the boundary and reach across to support without feeling like you're going to tumble over it.
Jackie Stavros:
And when you're pausing, breathing, and you get curious and you listen, that person just needs... You need to listen. You still have the boundary set, but at least they're happy that you listen to them, throw up all over you, yell all over you, but your tone and direction of asking them to understand your perspective and having a conversation that is generative, it may not be positive. That's what it's about.
Cheri Torres:
Yeah.
Andrew:
We've learned something at Second Nature, it's called labeling, is the technique. And it's labeling the emotion behind what's being shared. And so if we have a resident who's not paying rent on time, and suddenly you're engaged in the conversation with them and that they're saying, "Here's going on in my life and everything else." And again, the property manager knows the outcome that needs to happen. We have to get the rent paid. To Cheri's point, if we just offer compassion at that point so many times, it's going to end up in eviction and then they're on the street, and they're in a worse situation.
But being in that conversation and just saying something like, "Man, it sounds like you're dealing with something really difficult. It sounds like a really difficult situation." And that's got to feel, there's just tons of anxiety. It's going to be really difficult to get out of this. Starting from there, you're not saying, "You don't have to pay the rent."
Cheri Torres:
Exactly.
Jackie Stavros:
I'll continue to pay late.
Andrew:
That's right. But you can meet with them where they're at and then move from there towards, "How do we work together to get the rent paid on time?" And you can still reinforce and hold that boundary or hold that outcome as where we need to end up, and work with people on how you get there and leave a little space for them to express themselves. We want to invite, if you want to just come off of mute and share some feedback or appreciation for Jackie and Cheri today, you could share appreciation in what was the lesson, what it took away, if you want to add more than just two words like active listening, if you want to add more than three words, like pause, breathe... Oh, that's four words, get curious. All right.
If you want to say more than just that, offer some appreciation, feel free to just come off of mute and we'll take a couple of minutes if you want to express some appreciation to Jackie and Cheri here. If you're having trouble with the mute button, I can help, just raise your hand. Top takeaways from today, anything you'd like to share with Jackie or Cheri's appreciation before we get into questions.
Scott:
I do want to express appreciation to Jackie and Cheri because of the reframing. And I hadn't read the book yet, I will. I think it's a very, very powerful thing. Somebody, I forget which of you mentioned upfront contracts, and we use those a lot in sales and selling and it accomplishes something not as much as this, maybe, but it's a beautiful concept to apply to conversations because I think it can really express a lot. It can create a tremendous amount of rapport and connection where there might not have been. And just thank you for having that as part of your process. It's eye opening.
Cheri Torres:
Thank you.
Andrew:
Scott everybody. Well done. Love that. All right. Hey, we've got time for one or two more. Alexander, you had a great comment in the Facebook post, and I don't think Jackie and Cheri are members yet. We'll figure out how to get them in there. Would you mind just sharing that? I love what you wrote there.
Alexander:
I would happily share. So I put a note to, what am I feeling? Am I channeling the front part of my brain or that back part of my brain? Is what I'm saying going to put someone on the defense, or is it going to encourage a great conversation? And if I'm starting to feel reactive or defensive, the great reminder to just pause and breathe, and it really is amazing how much pausing, breathing, and getting curious about where somebody's coming from. And just loading it with empathy and curiosity is the key.
Andrew:
Awesome. Alexander, great.
Jackie Stavros:
Thank you.
Andrew:
Hey, and thanks to Alexander for making all the things on Zoom happen today, music, breakouts, there's a lot of moving parts here. We're not even done with that. We've got a survey, but we got Q&A first, Q&A first. So Cheri and Jackie, some questions came in. I think we said it was Claire, but then we looked back and it's actually...
Jackie Stavros:
It's Dana.
Andrew:
Dana had a question. So Dana, don't worry, we're not leaving you hanging. Claire's like, "I want to find out what my question was." So we're ready to take some questions and answers. Feel free, anything that would be helpful to get more clarity on, put that in the chat right now. Anything you'd love more clarity on or a situation you'd love to see a positive flip. Flip with anything you want. This is your chance, this is your chance. So we'll start with Dana's. Do you guys have that in front of you or do you want me to pull it up?
Cheri Torres:
I recall very specifically Dana said, "What can you do if you don't pause, breathe and get curious and you just speak and then you suddenly realize, 'Oh, I want to do that again.'?" And we actually call that a do-over, and Jackie's put a link to a Forbes article in chat. And it's basically asking the person, whenever you realize it, pause, take a deep breath, and ask, "Can I do this over? That's not the conversation I want to be in." And that kind of vulnerability usually is met with people who say, "Yeah, I'd like to do the conversation over also." The other thing you can do is do over even days later, you could ask the person to do a do-over, or just doing a do-over yourself on that conversation, like sitting down and saying, "Okay, if I had paused and taken a deep breath, where was I? What happened? What got triggered, and did what I think the person meant or said, was that really true? What might have been going on for them? What else could explain what happened?"
And if you do that often enough on conversations that are not great conversations, your brain actually begins to pause on its own, and instead of jumping quick to react, what it begins to learn is, there might be another reason for this, there might be something else I'm missing. And so it begins to become second nature.
Andrew:
Oh, come on.
Jackie Stavros:
Do we pay her extra for that?
Andrew:
Oh, there's an Andrew Jackson in the mail on its way to Asheville, North Carolina. Bravo.
Jackie Stavros:
That was good.
Andrew:
Well done. That's great. Jackie, anything else you'd like to add?
Jackie Stavros:
No, I think especially when you work with difficult people or people that frustrate you, you're having this conversation in your mind about something that person triggered you, and sometimes just doing a do-over with that person and you sit down and you have it be a conversation worth having, you find out maybe that person isn't so difficult to work with and you kind of made up all those things, or you helped make that person aware of what was going on in the conversation. So I also think it's really good when you deal with someone that you think is difficult, but you start to have conversations worth having with them.
Andrew:
That's great. Hey, we've got another question here from Michael McVety. And it's not about what's the game line on the Predators? So appreciate that, Michael. We can get to that next. In theory, to what extent do you explain your side to someone in a conversation? Or is it mostly about them and their position? That's the question. Cheri and Jackie, who wants to take that one first?
Cheri Torres:
So I...
Jackie Stavros:
Go ahead Cheri.
Cheri Torres:
Go for it. Do you want to go?
Jackie Stavros:
Well, I was... Yeah, I'll just say I think context is important because if you are having a conversation with someone that's senior to you or above you or the customer, instead of explaining your side at first, ask them a generative question. Get really curious about what they're thinking, where they're coming from and their perspective. And maybe you'll never even have to explain your side.
Cheri Torres:
And it's also, I think that... This is Stephen Covey's Seek First to Understand. And so going in with what are we trying to accomplish here? Do I just need to understand where the person is or are we trying to go someplace together? In which case, once that other person feels really heard, it's probably an easy ask to say, "I would love to share where I'm coming from so that you can understand me, because I feel like I understand you a whole lot better." Yeah, your side of whatever, your view, what you want to advocate for is all part of having a conversation worth having. It's just not getting into an argument about it. It's making the invisible visible in a conversation and you've got some invisible stuff just like they do.
Andrew:
Michael, I'll just add this on that as somebody who hasn't written a book, so take this with as much salt as you want. What I strive to think about that probably people on our team would say, "Well, Andrew, you could do better with that." It is something I'm working on, is before explaining myself, really trying to get to a point where someone says, "You get me." You get me first, and establishing that first. You're right. Jackie mentioned, hey, you may not even have to bring it up depending on how that conversation goes, but if you still need to bring it up, then you're in a much better position to do so, and they're probably much more available to listen. And something that was taught to me was asking a permission question. And the permission question could sound like, "Hey Michael, can I share with you what I'd really love to see happen here?"
And it sounds like, well, shouldn't that be understood? Shouldn't that be implicit? And it probably should, but very rarely does someone not appreciate or respect that you asked, and they're probably going to be more open and available to whatever you have to say next because you got that explicit permission. And you'll feel more confident sharing your position and explaining yourself because you've got that permission. So not sure if that's helpful, but great question. Great question.
Cheri Torres:
Especially if they get you first.
Andrew:
That's right.
Cheri Torres:
Yeah.
Andrew:
I just want to wrap up with some appreciation. Cheri and Jackie, you did not have to be here today. There's a lot of things you could be doing and that you shared a piece of your life with us, it really means a lot to us here at Second Nature. I know it means a lot to the people here in the audience. Thank you for sharing your gifts-
Cheri Torres:
You're welcome.
Andrew:
... Your wisdom, everything that you brought today. I love how I end up with notes. I've already read the book, I feel like I've read it three times, but I always take a deeper appreciation for concepts and I feel like more and more, it's a never ending journey to get better and better at having conversations worth having. So thank you both for being here today, and thanks to the audience, everyone sharing a piece of your life with us today, getting together, learning with your fellow property management leaders from across the country.
That's all for this episode of the Triple Win. Thanks go out to Carol Housel and Jeff Tucker for everything they do to put these episodes together. And we want to remind everyone that you can find more resources, upcoming events, a link to our private Facebook group where the conversation continues in between these episodes with other professional property managers. All of that you can find at rbp.secondnature.com. Again, that's rbp.secondnature.com. And until next time, keep transforming what it means to be in professional property management by finding and applying your next Triple Win. We want it to be true that every time we see you, we see a better version of you and your business. With that, cheers.
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